What Actually Happened between Mack Sennett, Mabel Normand, and Mae Busch
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:12 am
Below is an excerpt from a transcribed interview done by Kalton C. Lahue with George W. Stout on March 22, 1969. Stout (b. 1890-d. 1976) was Keystone’s first studio manager from 1913-1917, and would know all about what went on at the studio. He lived a long life working as a film executive and gave several long and detailed interviews to Lahue giving much information that the author used in his two books on Mack Sennett, KOPS AND KUSTARDS and MACK SENNETT KEYSTONE.
Yet Lahue did not use all the information that Stout gave to him, for various reasons, and this excerpt answers a big question on an important moment in the lives of Mack Sennett, Mabel Normand, and Mae Busch that comedy historians have wondered and speculated about for decades, important enough that we post it here.
It gives us no pride or pleasure to do this, but perhaps it is time to set this record straight on a very sad moment in the lives of these three people that affected each of them for the rest of their days. All of the participants are long dead, and beyond the reach of any mortal retribution, self-righteousness or pity. Any brouhaha, sanctimony, or potential hysteria over the revealed facts will not change one damn thing.
Let the words stand.
RICHARD M ROBERTS
STOUT: I got along with everyone on that lot except—eh—Roscoe Arbuckle and Mabel Normand.
LAHUE: Why Mabel? Roscoe I could see-----.
STOUT: Well Mabel----because I was for Sennett you see, and she and Sennett were constantly fighting------.
LAHUE: oh---oh---hm-hm.
STOUT: ---and telephones----eh—transcontinental telephones first came in about 1916, maybe 17, and it cost----eight dollars and ninety-five cents to call New York and eh—so Sennett would call her---she wouldn’t stick around the studio or work where Mack was, so he sent her (Mabel) and Roscoe to New York to the Fort Lee studios to make pictures there and she lived at the Knickerbocker Hotel in New York and eh---so Mack would call her, oh, he was desolated and she’d –just—slam---(garbled)—So he’d call her on the phone, and the minute she answered the phone, he’d say “Hello Darling” or “Hello Mabel” and “Bing!” went the phone and there’s eight dollars and ninety-five cents gone. So he’d come in and---he got very clever so he’d come into my office and say, “George, I can’t get Mabel to talk to me.”, he says, “You call her, and start talking about whether she’s got everything she wants with Roscoe and the folks back there, make her happy and so on, and before you hang up, just hand the receiver to me.”.
So I’d have a nice chat with her, she was never outwardly against me---but, eh---so we chatted for a few minutes on the phone and ----eh—just as I was about to hang up I’d just---not any goodbye or anything—I handed the receiver to Mack----so he said as soon as she heard his voice on the phone---boom!
LAHUE: So was she the high-living party-girl when she was at Keystone as she turned out to be later?
STOUT: No, no, no, she was eh—on top of the Mack Sennett Girls---I mean the way you know, not anything immoral going on on the lot there---
LAHUE: Yeah---not everything.
STOUT: In other words, we got pretty close to the point where we didn’t submit them to Sennett, they were no longer—bathing girls, because---ah—Sennett—I mean Mabel---is—the top life—and she could shut her eyes to anyone going on except Mae Busch---and ah---Mae Busch and Mabel were close friends, they had-----Ford Sterling’s wife, Anna Luther, Mae Busch and Mabel Normand were what they called “The Dirty Four”, and brother, they were around me, I’ll tell ya, they called themselves that. There was nothing that was ever spoken or printed that they wouldn’t use in their conversation and, eh—so, ah---Sennett got stuck on Mae Busch for a while, why I don’t know—so—what happened was that Sennett---I hope this doesn’t get published.
LAHUE: It won’t.
STOUT: Ah—Sennett came over to see—no—Sennett was with Mae Busch at her apartment and Mabel came---you didn’t keep the doors locked then—she opened the door and walked in there, went upstairs to the bedroom and here’s Mack in bed with Mae and she (Mabel) begins to scream and yell and Sennett got up, and oh brother, he could be really rough and brutal when he wanted to, and he threw her downstairs, she broke her arm, quite a fuss about it. The papers would want to know all about it in the morning and I had to tell them that ah---she’d had an accident and that a piece of scenery had fell on her and she’d be out of pictures for a few weeks until her arm recovered and so on------(tape runs out).
Yet Lahue did not use all the information that Stout gave to him, for various reasons, and this excerpt answers a big question on an important moment in the lives of Mack Sennett, Mabel Normand, and Mae Busch that comedy historians have wondered and speculated about for decades, important enough that we post it here.
It gives us no pride or pleasure to do this, but perhaps it is time to set this record straight on a very sad moment in the lives of these three people that affected each of them for the rest of their days. All of the participants are long dead, and beyond the reach of any mortal retribution, self-righteousness or pity. Any brouhaha, sanctimony, or potential hysteria over the revealed facts will not change one damn thing.
Let the words stand.
RICHARD M ROBERTS
STOUT: I got along with everyone on that lot except—eh—Roscoe Arbuckle and Mabel Normand.
LAHUE: Why Mabel? Roscoe I could see-----.
STOUT: Well Mabel----because I was for Sennett you see, and she and Sennett were constantly fighting------.
LAHUE: oh---oh---hm-hm.
STOUT: ---and telephones----eh—transcontinental telephones first came in about 1916, maybe 17, and it cost----eight dollars and ninety-five cents to call New York and eh—so Sennett would call her---she wouldn’t stick around the studio or work where Mack was, so he sent her (Mabel) and Roscoe to New York to the Fort Lee studios to make pictures there and she lived at the Knickerbocker Hotel in New York and eh---so Mack would call her, oh, he was desolated and she’d –just—slam---(garbled)—So he’d call her on the phone, and the minute she answered the phone, he’d say “Hello Darling” or “Hello Mabel” and “Bing!” went the phone and there’s eight dollars and ninety-five cents gone. So he’d come in and---he got very clever so he’d come into my office and say, “George, I can’t get Mabel to talk to me.”, he says, “You call her, and start talking about whether she’s got everything she wants with Roscoe and the folks back there, make her happy and so on, and before you hang up, just hand the receiver to me.”.
So I’d have a nice chat with her, she was never outwardly against me---but, eh---so we chatted for a few minutes on the phone and ----eh—just as I was about to hang up I’d just---not any goodbye or anything—I handed the receiver to Mack----so he said as soon as she heard his voice on the phone---boom!
LAHUE: So was she the high-living party-girl when she was at Keystone as she turned out to be later?
STOUT: No, no, no, she was eh—on top of the Mack Sennett Girls---I mean the way you know, not anything immoral going on on the lot there---
LAHUE: Yeah---not everything.
STOUT: In other words, we got pretty close to the point where we didn’t submit them to Sennett, they were no longer—bathing girls, because---ah—Sennett—I mean Mabel---is—the top life—and she could shut her eyes to anyone going on except Mae Busch---and ah---Mae Busch and Mabel were close friends, they had-----Ford Sterling’s wife, Anna Luther, Mae Busch and Mabel Normand were what they called “The Dirty Four”, and brother, they were around me, I’ll tell ya, they called themselves that. There was nothing that was ever spoken or printed that they wouldn’t use in their conversation and, eh—so, ah---Sennett got stuck on Mae Busch for a while, why I don’t know—so—what happened was that Sennett---I hope this doesn’t get published.
LAHUE: It won’t.
STOUT: Ah—Sennett came over to see—no—Sennett was with Mae Busch at her apartment and Mabel came---you didn’t keep the doors locked then—she opened the door and walked in there, went upstairs to the bedroom and here’s Mack in bed with Mae and she (Mabel) begins to scream and yell and Sennett got up, and oh brother, he could be really rough and brutal when he wanted to, and he threw her downstairs, she broke her arm, quite a fuss about it. The papers would want to know all about it in the morning and I had to tell them that ah---she’d had an accident and that a piece of scenery had fell on her and she’d be out of pictures for a few weeks until her arm recovered and so on------(tape runs out).